Lately I’ve become obsessed. It started when I saw a tweet about a certain website where photographers can pay $7.95 for another photographer to do an image critique. The photo critique consists of a professional photographer scoring the image on the following aspects: the subject of the photo, the composition and perspective, focus, use of camera, exposure and speed, colour and lighting, depth of field, and general impression. The image is then given an average score up to 10.
When I looked at why a professional photographer would sign up to do photo critiques, the reasons given were to make money (the top reason listed) and to advertise themselves as well as to have fun and because they enjoy teaching and sharing their knowledge with amateurs. In the FAQs, they state the idea is to provide insight into how the professional would have taken the photograph.
From a business perspective, I can see why an idea like this would take off. Supply meets Demand. Photographers who are starting out crave feedback because they feel they want to improve. I remember when I took my first course at the Perfect Picture School of Photography, other students in my class would comment on my images; I loved it especially when the comments were complimentary or flattering. If I am to be completely honest, I was looking more for validation than for ways to improve. It wasn’t until I attended a Freeman Patterson workshop that I realized there was a whole new (better) way of having my images assessed. Freeman called it “image evaluation” and it required a conversation with me as the maker. It was the most refreshing experience discussing my images that I’d had to date.
When I began mentoring with Ray Ketcham, I started on a road of self-discovery pushed forward by my own desire to be more self-aware when it comes to my photography. What I realized is how much I wanted the recognition of other photographers, for them to say how much they like my work. That was motivation to keep improving, to keep the praise flowing. There was one problem with this and that was when people said they didn’t like what they saw. Often my sister would tell me my images look lonely or sad, and here I was just trying to make the best of those compositional rules etched into my brain. Lots of negative space, rule of thirds, clean lines, and if they were leading lines, even better! Looking back on the first two+ years of making images, I really was making them more for other people than for myself.
A critique should not be about the way another person would have made your image. After all, do you want to make your own image or do you want to imitate images that others make? If someone critiques your image based on what they would do, then they are telling you how to make their image. For feedback to be truly helpful, there needs to be a conversation. Online image critiques just don’t facilitate a conversation around what was the intent of the maker. To know whether or not, your image was successful, a person has to know your intention when you made it. That requires a series of questions, of inquiries, and an exchange of ideas on what the image communicates.
When I see people critiquing images online, I wonder what qualifies them to critique. When Ray critiques my images, I know there is a wealth of knowledge about art, art history, making art, and years of experience in the highs and low of being a sculptor and photographer. From the discussions we have on my images, I am confident in his qualifications to provide feedback on my images. More than that I am comfortable knowing that his primary reason for wanting to talk about my images is not to make money; it is for me to reach what he sees as my potential.
I also read somewhere else that one of the reasons why some photographers like to do critiques is because it helps them improve their own photography. Am I the only one who sees something horribly wrong with this reasoning?! Some of you know that I work with Darwin Wiggett on his blog. Part of my responsibilities is to find inspirational images each month to feature on his blog. In the beginning I found it difficult to find images that Darwin would approve but now after months of looking at thousands of images, I am much better at picking out images that we both feel are good photographs and that others could learn from. Ray’s advice to me is to write down why I like the images in my notebook and in fact to do that will any image that I find interesting. That will inform my photography far more than critiquing the images of other photographers. I remember early on I saw pages from Sean Gallagher’s notebook and he was doing much the same thing. At that time, I was intrigued by the idea and started a notebook but abandoned it because I had a difficult time writing down why I liked certain images. Now I feel I am much more advanced in understanding images and can better articulate why they resonate with me. I am going to try to get back to doing this on a regular basis.
I know that there are photographers who will sit on either side of this argument. I’ve heard all the reasons why but you have to decide for yourself why you believe what you do. Maybe you will be like me and come to the rather painful conclusion that it is really more about meeting an emotional need than the desire to improve. If that’s the case, I think we owe it to ourselves to be truthful about it and not paint it as something else. Perhaps one day when you are ready for something different, you will seek another avenue for feedback–one more suited to your new goals and objectives.
I think looking a images and figuring out why you like a particular picture is a great way to learn, since it forces you to truly analyze it. I think image critiques should be done with a person that you truly value as a photographer and not just someone you met online. Otherwise you might just end up very frustrated. Photography is an art form and so as much as you might be able to critique technical details, so many personal interpretations go into making an image. I have had the same image critiqued by two very well respected photographers with two very different opinions.
I’ve had the same experience as you, Beate. I showed my images to three professional photographers and received different opinions from each of them. But that’s what they were–opinions. Can I ask what you felt when you received a different opinion? Did they make sense to you and if so, why?
I think the reason they differed was that these two photographers had different styles and it boiled down to personal opinion. I had to learn to be very open minded with critiques and that you can’t always agree with everything. Just try and take the good out of it and learn from it. In the end you personally have to be happy with your picture (and I tend to be my own worst critic). You can’t photograph to please others.
I live in China, and although there are photography clubs around, my Chinese isn’t good enough to really be able to participate.
I am a member of an on-line photography club (http://www.passionforpixels.com/) and every day people upload images for others to comment on. I do like it when someone tells me it is a good image, but I am also happy when others suggest alternatives that would make the image stronger. Sometimes when they make a comment, I know that I haven’t expressed myself effectively enough, because I didn’t make them see what I was trying to show – so that in itself helps, because I have to work out why it wasn’t effective.
I’m hoping one of my images will be chosen for a C&V critique – not wishing for a ‘fantastic photo, couldn’t have done better myself’ (well, yes I am but…
) but a thoughtful discussion of how I can create images that help me say what I feel.
Emotional validation… don’t our images speak of our emotions? When someone likes an image, we do feel validated. When someon criticises our ‘heart’ then we become concerned. But for people far away, any comment is better than no comment.
So interesting to hear your perspective, Deborah, with you being in China. Have you found people in your online club who you feel are qualified to discuss your images or is it just their opinion you are seeking?
I wish I could pull some strings for you on the C&V front but I don’t even get to see all the submissions
Some of the photographers in the on-line club are really good, and they do try to encourage everyone to say more than ‘nice photo’ or ‘I like this one’. Many of them are really good with PS and give good techie suggestions and advice as well.
Fingers crossed re C&V.
So you have one side wanting to make money, craving to be recognized as an expert, and the other side looking for validation. I guess it takes time and experience to find people who are willing to put all that aside in order to have a conversation?
I’ve been struggling to understand the value of critiques and I think you’ve really gotten to the heart of the matter: “A critique should not be about the way another person would have made your image.” I think you’ve really given me a key. Thank you.:)
I just hope that experience doesn’t come at too high a price, Anita. This is just my opinion though and others might have had wonderful experiences and grown by leaps and bounds with online critiques.
I have to admit I never thought about it this way. Indeed, by putting my photos on a blog, Flickr (that I don’t do much) or 500px, I expect more validation, I am looking for comments how much people like it- and how many like it. Of course, it will happen that somebody just hates my image and will let me know about, like quite recently on the blog. But even that does not necessarily mean, that the feedback is constructive. I do feel, like you do, that the person needs to be qualified. I am thinking more and more of finding somebody to look at my images and tell me, if at all I am going in the right direction, and if I have any direction at all. Should I find a mentor? Go to a professional event with portfolio review? I am not sure yet, but I realize the need. Great, thought provoking post!
Thanks Iza. One of the places where I sought and received great feedback was during my meetings with my Vancouver group of photographers, Dave, David and Mary. We haven’t met in a long time but when we did earlier, I felt safe asking for their take on my images. Mary was very qualified to provide an assessment and Dave and David were walking the same path as me in terms of learning. They really provided a “leg up” for me and I will always be grateful. I wish everyone had a similar group to help them along.
As for a mentor, my experience has been great but I know others who have not had good mentors. Choose wisely if you are going to go down that route.
For me the issue is about what type of image discussion it is and I don’t mind if it happens on-line.
I fint Flickr not a good tool, but I have used other sites with stricter rules for the people who comment, and the next commenter may well comment on how he or she agrees or disagrees with the previous commenter
I have found this a very powerful tool that speeded up my learning a lot the first two years.
Asking the photographer what he or she ment to say is also interesting because whan you are new… well I wasn’t conscious at all of what I was trying to say… if anything at all
Against that you could always argue that a photograph should be able to stand on its own feet and if the photographer has to explain his intention that is “proof” that he didn’t manage to make the image stand on its own
Eli, can I ask what kinds of comments you received that were helpful to you in terms of learning photography? Also would you be willing to share those other sites that you found useful so others can consider them when seeking feedback?
On the topic of intention, I realize that we are not always conscious of what we want to say in an image. For me, it often happens after I have made my image. There was a really good quote from an article on the Leica blog last week in an interview with Claire Yaffa, which I think sums it up for me.
“(Clara) studied with renowned children’s photographer Joseph Schneider, learning how to engage children, set up lighting, use a light meter, and then met Cornell Capa in 1972, who said, “You take pretty pictures Yaffa, what do you want to say?” Thus began her distinguished career as a photojournalist…”
Many of us start us learning the technical–myself included. At some point though I had a “Cornell Capa” who asked me what I wanted to say. I don’t see that online and I don’t know that’s the right place to ask that question because it involves a conversation rather than a series of comments or a debate.
This lures me out of the woodworks. Sort of. I’ve been looking for a meaningful mentoring relationship. Thought I found someone I connected with, but all I learned from that was how to keep more of a distance really.
Flickr can be great for people who just need positive feedback for motivation. Not if you’d really like to learn. One of the photographers I look up to recommended 1X to me. I’ve yet to use it. As with anything it goes back to knowing what you want. And especially with photography so often I don’t know exactly what that is, but that something moved me, something inspired me and I don’t always know how to put that into words.
I’ve visited 1x.com often when looking for images for Darwin but I never stopped to read the critiques. Perhaps I should do that. As I mentioned to Iza above, I think picking a mentor is not easy and we have to choose wisely. I plan to do a blog post on a recent experience a friend of mine as a cautionary tale.
I have a question for you–is knowing what you want the same as knowing what you need?
Sometimes it is, sometimes it’s not?
One of our not-so-mathematician colleagues once described it to me as:
“Need = Want + A Good Excuse”
But I think sometimes people need a good kick under their tushy without wanting it. And vice versa, there are plenty (too many) things people want without needing it
I think re critiques this is tied to the semantics of meaningful vs useful. A simple thumbs up obviously won’t improve that image or the creator’s understanding – but depending on their mood, the person giving the thumbs up, etc it can still be very meaningful to that person?
I had a bunch of responses to this, but there was one 2-tiered one. With regards to image critiquing, I initially thought “hmmm, so that makes photo competitions a waste of time then.” Loaded statement, i know. There are enough debates going on about comps as it is. But then, when I thought about photo competitions being shut off to avenues of conversation, something else hit me. For some time now it’s been getting to me that the yearly Australian photo comps held by its premier professional photography association, are usually won by members of the in-crowd (despite judging being claimed to be impartial, blind, blah blah).
For a while now I’ve been thinking that maybe it’s because these comp winners are already multi award winners, who exhibit, get interviewed all the time etc, and the judges clearly know their works in progress as there is usually some and important-commuity / media chatter about it.
Now that you’ve mentioned the conversation aspect of it, it occurs to me that they continue winning because they’ve had the benefit of getting their thoughts about their work, its progress and other miscellaneous info out there, whether in person with the right people, or through in depth interviews, or just through chit chat that media generates.
Hmm. No particular point I want to make about this. It was more just me blathering on about a realisation.
With regard to photo critiques in general, I’ve benefited greatly from critiques myself, especially as a beginner. I have to say, every time someone has critiqued a photo of mine, it has turned into a conversation (largely owing to my irritating habit of asking “why” repeatedly). I continue to benefit from random critiques, whether about images, image sets etc, because the people doing so are usually keen to have some sort of dialogue about it (my DITL crew being a great example).
Hmmm, i just said “my” DITL crew… perhaps I am taking my nagging duties a touch too seriously?
Competitions, hmmmm. Lots of debate on the value of those with good points on both sides of the argument. I’ve heard it said that judges pick the work that is most like their own work. I don’t know if that’s true or not because I’m not on the competition circuit but one of the issues I have is that lots of great work goes unnoticed because it doesn’t win the competition. If someone of “authority” doesn’t ordain something as worthy, then others might feel the work is not good.
In a sense though that shouldn’t matter. I believe that great work will stand the test of time. Images with lasting impact will be remembered long after the prizes have been awarded.
Whip your DiTL crew into shape, Charlene! I think there is some really, really good stuff in there and I can’t wait to share it with the world.
“I’ve heard it said that judges pick the work that is most like their own work”
It’s been suggested with these as well. These last couple of years, it appears that to win, your work had to have some texture layered over it, and be post processed to hell. This is probably going to bite me at some point in the future, but have a look:
Nationals 2010: http://www.canon.com.au/About-Canon/News-Events/Events/APPA-2010
WA division 2011: here: http://www.wa.aippblog.com/?page_id=1257
I’m not begrudging the winners their standard of work, because I’d look at anything there and go “wow, wish I’d shot that” but it doesn’t escape me that they all have certain kind of look to them.
Hmmm, this is turning into another sort of rant altogether. I shouldn’t go there. With this, as with what seems like every facet of the professional photography industry, I feel as though I’m missing a very important chunk of understanding. I should really enter next year and watch the judging, as I’ve heard that the comments you get from the judges are really good.
Re DITL – have been slack for the past couple of weeks awaiting The Editor’s availability. Need to get moving with it and pester those poor 5 again.
Oh oh, just read this and it’s too good not to share. Neil Gaiman sums up, why i have found some critiquing useful
“When people tell you something’s wrong or doesn’t work for them, they are almost always right. When they tell you exactly what they think is wrong and how to fix it, they are almost always wrong.”
From here: http://the99percent.com/tips/7082/25-Insights-on-Becoming-a-Better-Writer
That is the sort of critique that’s helped me think on how I take pictures and what I’m taking them for. I never find that critiques help me immediately, but they do tend to take effect after I’ve had some time to mull about them, toss them around, examine them from different perspectives and figured out how to apply discoveries to my work.
That was what I asked the (my? ha) DITL group for when I shared my set with them, basically “tell me if you love it, hate it, think i could do more/less of something etc, but tell me why.” For me, it’s the whys that spur the conversation, that give insight to the mental process of the person looking at my work, how they arrived at their conclusion and how I need to think about it. I’ve gotten some stellar feedback from them, all different, all valuable.
Right, i’ll stop blogging in your comments box now….
I wonder who the “people” are Gaiman refers to in the above quote. Having a community of people whom I trust and whose opinions I value has helped me work through questions in much the same way as you describe. I think that’s what most of us are looking for on this journey. Finding the right people though is not always easy. I also don’t think of those conversations as critiques, more like discussions and usually they go beyond just our images. As someone once said photography should be about life and not the other way around. And that’s where I find the greatest value rather than anything technical.
I took “people” to mean the general populace e.g. flickr contacts or something in our context, when someone says something like “I would have moved to the right about 3 feet, 2 inches, and kneeled so that I was 4.5 inches lower than the subject’s chinhairs for stronger composition.”
As you’ve said, there are few people most of us would trust with/welcome such specific comments from, as it touches on that sacred/contentious ground of our perspective. I find technical critique only helps if you’re actively seeking it, and if there was ever a conversation staller, it’s “the composition is wrong.” Pride offended, backs up, mind shut, period.
No finding someone is not easy, and spot on re life – can’t get into some solid conversation without life creeping in. Yet another example of “life finds a way.”
Some background just to put my statements into perspective. I began photography in around 1996, shot slides on an entry level SLR for some years. Around 2000 I became bored with it and my lack of progress and having no one around to provide me feedback – I pursued other interests for some years including writing, drawing and DJing. In 2005 I got back into photography via a digital SLR and I loved the digital workflow and the online photo communities. Initially I had my work on Pbase.com and I found many good people to give me feedback on Pbase.com and DPreview.com.
For 2-3 years I greatly benefitted from almost daily sharing and critiquing of my images from my online friends, there was 2-3 who really gave me usable feedback and help all the time. And that was what was important to me, I knew these people, I knew where they were coming from and their feedback benefitted me greatly. What I liked most was when they did not like my work, I don’t learn much from people saying “great shot”. For me, it was all about the desire to constantly improve, and it still is.
I agree, with the internet, everyone is an expert and everyone is a critic. The forum where HCB images were posted is a classic. I have offered feedback myself on blogs where I have offended the blogger as clearly they were not looking for any ideas for improvements but for a “nice shot” comment. Nowadays I have really stopped commenting on blogs, out of time and unless people know me personally I am misunderstood.
Recently I have shied away from sharing my work online, I want to savour it for long term projects, publish books and do exhibitions. Online sharing does not do anything for me anymore. But when I got into digital photography in 2005 it helped me to no end, helped me to get where I am now.
…
I have no idea what I’m saying with his really
Just relaying my story and experience 
I think for a beginner, as long as you have thick skin and want to improve not just collect ‘likes’ – online communities can lead to online friends that can really help improve your work.
Btw some of the most usable feedback for me during the years has come from friends who are not photographers, they don’t think like photographers and that’s an advantage – to me anyway.
Oh and Charlene is doing a fine job of whipping us, the DITL crew
I agree completely that online communities can lead to online friends and I’d take that one step further and encourage people to meet those online friends with whom you click. It has made a huge difference in my learning journey. I also agree that talking to non-photographers is something we should do. At ART, we had a brilliant discussion with Wes Cecil a writer. I wish I had taped it!
I’ll say it again – critiques online are worth exactly what you pay for them. The critiques that most critics online are qualified for are based on a few rules of composition or color that the critic learned online or from a short book from the how-to section at Barnes and Nobel. This kind of critique is fine for decoration or someone shooting photos for interior decorators. If your work is decoration or bound for that sort of future don’t bother to spend the time or money on a real assessment of it. The online forums will do fine. If you want more I’d ask what the qualifications and history of the person doing the critique is and rate it accordingly.
All critique is nothing more than opinion anyway no matter what the rank of qualifications. If you don’t ask more than just a few from different places all you are getting is echo chamber good and bad.
For a critique to be truly valuable the critic should
1.have more than a passing knowledge of art and the reasons for those so called rules
2. have had an in-depth conversation about the intent and reason behind an image
3. ask the reasons rules were broken or followed
4. have the ability to understand artwork outside their own sense of the aesthetics
5. be able to see more that the current fad or popular work as good
That is my short list of what matters to begin a real critique of value. [Emphasis on begin]
——————
I leave my take on art as a competitive sport for another time.
Yup. That’s pretty much what you’ve been saying to me for the past year. I am not qualified to provide critiques based on #1 and am working on #4 but this list has really helped me improve critiquing my own images. I have conversations with myself all the time about my intent and reason behind making an image and if I broke or followed any reasons and why. This kind of self-examination has been beneficial to me. Thanks so much!
So it’s always about the people, not the place?
When I read this, it seemed very interesting to me:
http://www.marcoryanphotography.com/index.php/2010/02/the-compelling-image-portfolio-review-with-ami-vitale/
And on IGVP there are now similar offerings.
But if it’s the people, then is it more about an on-going relationship? Do you feel you grow as well as a mentor?
Sabrina, I’m really looking forward to read your thoughts on picking a mentor. And thank you also for taking the time to write this!
This topic has now officially brought me out from ‘lurking’ with a high regard and appreciation for a lot of the comments on this topic.
I think there are a lot of people looking at the question “how do i get better”. And perhaps that is focused on “how do I make a better image” or perhaps more deeper as in “how do i better convey what i want to express” or “how do I convey what I feel”. Either way, its a reach out externally to search for that answer.
Unfortunately, I think most critiques (such as the online ones described in your post) provide an answer but doesn’t address the the underlying desire…some guidance as how to get “better” (however ‘better’ is self-defined’). And the answer provided in rule of 3rds, composition, exposure, etc….is like some explaining the law of gravity by saying”things go down”. Well of course they do…but why? But how?
And the answers to the why’s and the how’s in moving expression forward through photography I think are (at least for me) most found in the topics I have seen raised to higher visibility of late…either here on your blog, on Craft and Vision, by David and by others….its about intent, self-expression, vision and creativity.
My question to you Sabrina is…..have you found any situations where you have received a critique and it helped you galvanize your own vision, skill, creativity, etc simply because you believed the critique (or the critiqued) was simply wrong.
- Lance
Great questions Lance.
I have not been in a situation where I myself have received a critique that helped me move forward because I felt it was simply wrong but I have seen those critiques given to other people and that has moved me forward–if only in my thinking.
Some people when they critique, deal only with the technical (how) even though they believe they are discussing the why. For example, people talk about lines and how you can use lines to draw the viewer’s eye to the subject and that’s why you would use a diagonal line as opposed to any other line. Notice the way in which the words why and how are used in this kind of comment but it is still about the technical.
Sometimes we need those comments but I think when we have advanced in our photography, we have the questions you mention like how do I better convey what I want to express. I think then the craft is in service to the intent and they work together to make images that come closer to expressing what we want to say.
Good post Sabrina, and makes me rethink what I’ve been banging on about for a while now!
For me, we don’t exist in isolation and the response our work receives is vital to guiding us in our journey. What we do with that feedback is a completely different matter. You can fully accept it, or consider it just another opinion; but there is no bad – other than cruel – feedback in my book, you just have to be savvy enough to filter it (perhaps that’s the hard part then…).
As I’ve mentioned in the C&V comments/mails I’ve shared with you, getting the right people to review and react to my work is the one big thing I’m looking for. In some regards you’re correct, a side of that is emotionally for validation, but I do genuinely and sincerely want some input (for me to use as I see fit) into how I can improve as an artist. Perhaps buying into C&V is my “lazy way” of getting in touch with such a group of people, but frankly you could scour the internet for years and not find it. Ooh, maybe not looking on the internet is the key
I think Ray K makes a very good point re: qualification for critiquing. I always considered this a reciprocal relationship (unless you are lucky enough to have an actual mentor) but Ray’s correct that really you need more than a willingness to share your thoughts to be useful as a critic.
So with that, and the view that online critiquing isn’t really going to help I’m not sure where that leaves me!
Certainly would be interested in your post about mentoring. Certainly if you or others had thoughts on how to crack this particular nut (or to get over it!) I’d be glad to hear them.
Thanks again for the post.
Wow, that’s a lot of discussion which I found intriguing to see everyone’s perspectives. Certainly poor critique on my photography course really got me down. It was tutors just giving opinions with no discussion about our intentions, the challenges we faced and a “right of reply” to the comments. Personally I’m looking for something that’s more in-depth and a collaborative conversation where more learning can take place. Look forward to your post on mentoring. JT
Cute and fun shot. Always makes me laugh at things dogs will play with.